View Full Version : Aaaggghhhh!
Arachnaphobe
04/05/2006, 05:02
If I see one more project that is ridiculously low priced and has something like "this is dead easy, you should be able to do it in an hour if you're an expert" in the description I'll scream.
Mind you, it's too late. I have already screamed - several times.
I've had a few "conversations" along the lines of:
"The price you are asking is far too low for the work involved."
"But, it's easy you can have it done in 10 minutes."
"If it's so easy then why don't you do it?"
"Well, I'm not a progammer/expert."
"How do you know it's easy then?"
"Because it is."
The conversation then becomes somewhat cyclic and communication usually breaks down.
My 11 year old niece once made me a sandwich in about 10 minutes and it looked and tasted like shit. I have to admit it was still a sandwich though.
The point is: if these people want something that will take at least a day to design/develop & test in 10 minutes it will be about as useful as that sandwich.
Yours Grumblingly
everypcneed
04/05/2006, 16:53
I have to agree with you here. It is hard enough trying to scoop a project and then you get the low bidder who is willing to do it only to see the project relisted a couple days later due to the fact they did not get what they wanted.
Let me just say I am so so glad adsense and affiliate marketing is working to my advantage at this time to covers my expenses.
Cheers!!
The line I love the most :
"I have a very low budget"
Crap!!! If you don't have a budget to do the project, then don't think of doing it in the first place.
Anyways....
I have moaned and groaned about this for too long already. I stick with web design companies who know what they are doing, and especially know how to pay.
And for those bloody $5 programmer/webmaster IDIOTS......WAKE UP!!!
emmataylor
04/07/2006, 21:21
Ahh, I got into a very similar position.. and it turned ugly. The guy was not professional at all, and tried to belittle me with idiotic insults like "you're a loser" "GET AWAY FROM ME" (and guess what he was 20 something and I am 16) and he thought I was rude for saying that $40 was not sufficient for the amount of work he wanted...Plus I hadn't even bidded on the project...
When will some of these people learn. I try to avoid 'webmasters' like that because they're not professional and just want something that looks good for a rip off price. :rolleyes:
Programmers shouldn't have to tailor to a webmasters price, that's when it gets stupid like a complete webdesign for $5. INSANE! :|
As someone said before, if you don't have a decent budget for the project you're after, don't start a project at all until you do have a decent amount of money.
I shall end my rant here. :)
I've been lurking this forum a little, and bidding jobs here on this site and others for a few months. I see a disturbing trend here. The services of web designers and programmers are being devalued to a large degree, at an alarming rate.
We are people who should be dictating what the service buyers will pay us for our services. They should not be able to decide that they want to have their website designed for $100 and just have it done due to the "nature of the marketplace". The responsible, professional service providers in this community should stick together, and we should be paid what we are worth.
I don't know about you, but my services are worth more than $5 or $10 an hour. It has occurred to me that, perhaps we should do something along the lines of forming a group, a community, or alliance. As a unit, maybe we could begin to put an end to the devaluation of our services. Sure, some people would still be bidding $20 for 10 page websites, or $5 for professional logos, but as a group we could work together to put an end to such nonsense.
Perhaps we could even have some very general guidelines for the pricing of our services. I don't mean fixed prices, but something very loose, that would allow for competition in the bidding, yet would draw a bottom line below which we would not go, something along the lines of a minimum price schedule for common jobs.
These things have their pros and they have their cons. I have considered both sides. I believe that there are those buyers who are taking advantage of the situation and taking advantage of some service providers. I believe that this might be a way to help us as providers. I am asking for input, opinions, suggestions, or ideas from other providers here. TIA
eLance does that. Essentially minimum bids.
And I don't use them because of it. It is precisely the fact that ScriptLance allows low bids that I use them. NOT because I am cheap, but because sometimes I have small projects.
I need a program modified. 3-4 lines. If I were to go to elance it would cost me the minimum for that category, whatever it is, $50 or $100.
This has gone around before and will go around again.
But in the end there are tons of legit projects. There will always be lazy programmers and sleazy webmasters. Each trying to take advantage of the others.
:) That happened to me so many times. I had a guy who wanted a nice flash intro with movie effects. I stated my price - 350 euros. I'd after that poor guy started crying , caughing and everything. He said (quote) "who the hell is gonna pay that much for a f*cking intro!! $40 is max"
Sad but true :(
Yeah...
These things take time, effort and skill.
I spent the whole day today working on a Flash presentation. The whole bloody day.
But....
350 euros might be an overcharge. Honestly, it is. Off course it depends on what you need to do.
:)
$350 is NOT an overcharge, it's still an undercharge. But with design I think it all depends on the clients budget. If he wants a simple flash intro that can be done in 2 days, then $350 is fine. If he wants a well thoughtout flash intro where time has been put into researching the right target audience, then he's looking at 4-5 figures at least. Remember, if you're putting an intro into your site, a) it better be good, because for the most part, people hate intros, and be, this is your first impression, make it impress your target audience.
stonedsage
04/14/2006, 09:49
$350 is NOT an overcharge, it's still an undercharge. But with design I think it all depends on the clients budget. If he wants a simple flash intro that can be done in 2 days, then $350 is fine. If he wants a well thoughtout flash intro where time has been put into researching the right target audience, then he's looking at 4-5 figures at least. Remember, if you're putting an intro into your site, a) it better be good, because for the most part, people hate intros, and be, this is your first impression, make it impress your target audience.
The whole point of using a site like Scriptlance is to enable people to do things that they could not afford to do otherwise. $350 may be $300 more than the person has in the bank.
Projects have budgets .. if posted too low for your tastes just don't bid.
If a flash intro takes you 12 hours to make, and you want to make $20 an hour, thats $240. Most freelancers even US based work for around $12 - $15 to remain competitive and do so quite happily.
$14 an hour = $168.
Sorry , but I'll go with the $14 an hour programmer who has lots of good reviews, enjoys working as a freelancer and produces quickly enough to be profitable.
Your quote is 35 hours of work at $10, which even I would find way over inflated. You already stated $350 is suitable for 2 days of work.
$350 / 16 hours (2 days) = $21.87 .. if I wanted to pay $21.87 an hour I wouldn't be coming to scriptlance.
$40, I agree is too low. However someone may be comfortable making $5 or $6 an hour and be talented. Imagine someone at home, good at flash, no job and bills to pay. What would you do if you had kids to feed and no hope of finding employment? and imagine if $6 an hour was considered very decent money in their area of the world. Don't fault other people for enjoying successes your ego prohibits you from winning.
Seems like you only like outsourcing when you are on the positive receiving end of it .. otherwise you sound like lots of people in America complaining about how cheaply things get done overseas. Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black, eh?
The whole point of using a site like Scriptlance is to enable people to do things that they could not afford to do otherwise. $350 may be $300 more than the person has in the bank.
Projects have budgets .. if posted too low for your tastes just don't bid.
If a flash intro takes you 12 hours to make, and you want to make $20 an hour, thats $240. Most freelancers even US based work for around $12 - $15 to remain competitive and do so quite happily.
$14 an hour = $168.
Sorry , but I'll go with the $14 an hour programmer who has lots of good reviews, enjoys working as a freelancer and produces quickly enough to be profitable.
Your quote is 35 hours of work at $10, which even I would find way over inflated. You already stated $350 is suitable for 2 days of work.
$350 / 16 hours (2 days) = $21.87 .. if I wanted to pay $21.87 an hour I wouldn't be coming to scriptlance.
$40, I agree is too low. However someone may be comfortable making $5 or $6 an hour and be talented. Imagine someone at home, good at flash, no job and bills to pay. What would you do if you had kids to feed and no hope of finding employment? and imagine if $6 an hour was considered very decent money in their area of the world. Don't fault other people for enjoying successes your ego prohibits you from winning.
Seems like you only like outsourcing when you are on the positive receiving end of it .. otherwise you sound like lots of people in America complaining about how cheaply things get done overseas. Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black, eh?
And herein lies the problem. Service buyers think that Scriptlance is here just so they can get their jobs done for less. Hypothetical question: What if 95% of the service providers suddenly decided they wouldn't work for less than $25 an hour, which is what good programmers deserve? Then I guess the shoe would be on the other foot.
I know, it will never happen.
Projects have budgets .. if posted too low for your tastes just don't bid.
Freelancers have lives to live. Some of us can't afford to live off of $5/hour.
Seems like you only like outsourcing when you are on the positive receiving end of it .. otherwise you sound like lots of people in America complaining about how cheaply things get done overseas. Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black, eh?
This is an arrogant attitude to have. First of all, I (a Canadian) and many Americans do not see any positives in outsourcing. Big business might like it, but the people don't.
digitalnature
04/14/2006, 20:28
actually most of the coders here do.
why people won't understand that not all of us live in rich countries like the US?
ludesign
04/15/2006, 03:30
actually most of the coders here do.
why people won't understand that not all of us live in rich countries like the US?
I can answer you:
Because they are rich and stay in their country ... and do not know how other people lives :p
Here in Bulgaria, monthly wages is around 100-200$ (in our Big cities is about 400-800$ per month).
So ... i have nothing else to say ;)
My 11 year old niece once made me a sandwich in about 10 minutes and it looked and tasted like shit. I have to admit it was still a sandwich though.
LMAO funniest post ive read all day :rolleyes:
linuxdragons
05/10/2006, 00:15
I can answer you:
Because they are rich and stay in their country ... and do not know how other people lives :p
Here in Bulgaria, monthly wages is around 100-200$ (in our Big cities is about 400-800$ per month).
So ... i have nothing else to say ;)
No, we understand how other people live, which is why we stay in our country(you got that part backwards). The world is(and always has been) about percentages instead of numbers. We can't readily justify working for scriptlance wages and justify living in america(at least not comparable). Now, we could fly to bulgaria(and that might even let us in). But wheres the fun in that? Especially after we spent $60,000 on college.
At $0.625 per hour($100/month) that is roughly 1/10th of an unskilled mcdonalds worker makes in america(of course this is still below the wadges of several other inudstrialized nations).
You could go further to calculate what you would have to make doing programming on scriptlance to equival what you would make working at mcdonalds. If you are a legitimate american programmer than you must file your income as contract work(subjected to twice the tax of a w-2). You also have to take into account the wire transfer fees.
So when an american programmer charges $10/hour on scriptlance here is the break down of that hour.
1)30% taxes
2)5% paypal or 10% escrow
3)$5 project fee
$10/hour
-$3 tax
-$0.5($1.0) fees
------------
$6.0 - $6.5/hour = programming on scriptlance with difficulty finding work and people bitching at you
$6.25/hour
-$0.95 tax
$5.3/hour = a 15 yearold drop out with no ged who doesnt know what html is who could quit and be rehired every other week
I am not trying to be 'the rich american', but I am trying to 'an american'. I can make 1/3 the gdp per capita of the us working on scriptlance(which is not good if you are an american). When you insult the average american on scriptlance you are insulting the person who is making $250/month in bulgaria(regardless of the city or not) who has to bust there ass much harder to even get the work in the firstplace and to keep it consistant.
No, we understand how other people live, which is why we stay in our country(you got that part backwards). The world is(and always has been) about percentages instead of numbers. We can't readily justify working for scriptlance wages and justify living in america(at least not comparable). Now, we could fly to bulgaria(and that might even let us in). But wheres the fun in that? Especially after we spent $60,000 on college.
At $0.625 per hour($100/month) that is roughly 1/10th of an unskilled mcdonalds worker makes in america(of course this is still below the wadges of several other inudstrialized nations).
You could go further to calculate what you would have to make doing programming on scriptlance to equival what you would make working at mcdonalds. If you are a legitimate american programmer than you must file your income as contract work(subjected to twice the tax of a w-2). You also have to take into account the wire transfer fees.
So when an american programmer charges $10/hour on scriptlance here is the break down of that hour.
1)30% taxes
2)5% paypal or 10% escrow
3)$5 project fee
$10/hour
-$3 tax
-$0.5($1.0) fees
------------
$6.0 - $6.5/hour = programming on scriptlance with difficulty finding work and people bitching at you
$6.25/hour
-$0.95 tax
$5.3/hour = a 15 yearold drop out with no ged who doesnt know what html is who could quit and be rehired every other week
I am not trying to be 'the rich american', but I am trying to 'an american'. I can make 1/3 the gdp per capita of the us working on scriptlance(which is not good if you are an american). When you insult the average american on scriptlance you are insulting the person who is making $250/month in bulgaria(regardless of the city or not) who has to bust there ass much harder to even get the work in the firstplace and to keep it consistant.
Its not just about living costs, but about recieving decent payment for quality work.
I am from India, and as most people know, the living cost here is far less than that in US. But i still find it difficult to work on price quoted in Scriptlance projects.
I work on ASP.net/asp and j2ee technologies. I joined scriptlance in march 2005. I quoted custom bids on projects based on requirements. Till jan 2006 not even one of my bid was accepted. It is only after i priced it really low that i won my first project. Ofcourse i will have to be really foolish to work for $10, so i picked projects which has $100 or more as the minimum bid rate and bid with the minimum amount. Just 1 month after i started bidding with low rates i got my first winning bid SL.
I know that i am working at a loss in SL, but I got no other option if i have to win a project here. There are too many people who bid unrealistic rates here. I dont know about their quality of work, but if they do provide good work, they too are entitled to good payment. By bidding too low just to get project they devalue their work and ours too.
Its true that majority of programmers bid too low and many webmasters want the whole world for $10. However you will always find some webmasters who value time/quality. Once you find such webmasters and build a relationship with them you get plenty of work outside of Scriptlance. Don't run behind webmasters who want the cheapest guy, or who think "its just a 5 mins work for the person who knows what he is doing". You won't be able to build relationship with such webmasters since they will always look for that cheapest guy.
mooondawg
05/16/2006, 11:17
I am new here to this site and for that matter New to Web Site and Graphic design. But ya know i worked hard to learn what I have. I see bids up for $1.00. Whats up with that?? You have to pay 5 bucks to bid. So these folks are paying to work?? I just saw a bid won for 5bucks. So, this programmer did this job for free?? I see postings like "I need a professional website design. Project Limit is 50 bucks. Programmer must provide references and portfolio. You want a professional site for 50 bucks?? I undestand a portion of these people live in other countries, however, I cannot afford to pay to work and thats what a lot of them do, or work for free. It's sad. I think the object here is to provide good quality work at a FAIR cost to the client. Its not working. Programmers are being taken advantage of. :confused:
osiris2k6
05/18/2006, 08:14
I am a programmer in real life, but a webmaster on Scriptlance. I say you get what you pay for. I wouldn't dare trust my project to someone who bids $50 for a fullscale enterprise-like application.
trendywebs
06/15/2006, 10:50
:eek: Very recently i lost a project where the webmaster was having difficulty in making a database...an easy job so i bid $10 to cover my SL fee and $5 for the work and time. Got a prompt reply from the webmaster and then boom!! Someone took the proj because he bid for $5!!! Again!!! These are so damn frustrating!! How can anyone do a job for just $5???? when its gonna go to SL anyway? We need a solution for these bids!!!
Regards,
Anirban.:)
How can anyone do a job for just $5????
man, how can anyone bid $10?
Sometimes programmers with real potential and a great amount of knowledge bid $5 just to get accepted in order to get their first review.
Now I'm not really a webmaster, but I have posted a few small projects. I have chosen some of these $5 guys because they know what they are talking about, and at the end of the day, I don't pay them only $5.
So you guys have to keep this in mind. If the $5 guy knows what he is doing, then he will have a better chance of getting the project than the $10 guy.
But...
I agree with both of you. It's insane. :)
trendywebs
06/19/2006, 06:34
man, how can anyone bid $10?
It was only to create a database using phpMyAdmin, it takes about 4-5 clicks and 3 entries to be made on the keyboard. In short it was a 5 min job. For someone who charges $20 per hour if working on hourly basis. I think $10 for 5 minutes was very logical to me. If you quote $20-40 or something anyone who knows what was needed to be done will know it was unfair. As i said it was only to cover my SL fees. I can't charge someone something outrageous for something like that! The price for doing a work is calculated on 2 factors, complexity and duration. That project was not difficult on any one of those factors.
I quoted $20 on a project that will include a small bit of programming. Webmaster then asks me via PMB if I can do it for $5. Ummm...no.
Hiya..
I am a buyer and have to disagree with some of you... The laws of economics are set in motion market value undisturbed with find its own level. However yes $5 bid seem more like charity than anything else cuz anyone that paid someone $5 dollars for work of any kind has a tainted soul.
Now you have to understand two things I am not talking about anyone in particular more in a general since.
It is unrealistic to expect to get an hourly wage in the freelance world unless you have previously created a relationship with the webmaster. You say that $25,$30,$40/hour is a fair wage but the problem are
1. do you have the skills to command that kind of wage would every minute of your work be dedicated to doing the job or is there going to be times were a few minutes slip here and there or are you even going to have to do some research on ways to sort a particular coding issue etc. In the end you can’t really expect to be paid to learn even thought it would be nice to be in that position.
2. Price is King with most people and the internet is of no exception. I don’t personally go with the lowest bid I like people that make the effort and post really well in the PMB.
Funny I just seen this topic after earlier today having a dispute with a programmer (not hired via scriptlance) he felt that he needed more money after already going 2 times over budget and 4 times over on timeframe. And I felt that he was paid enough to finish the job. It was resolved mutually and he’s back on track.
Anyway the moral is that programmers are just as bad as webmasters. I honesty have to say that I have never found a programmer that has it all talented, business sense, dedication etc.. as they have all probably been snapped up by Co&Co…
Don’t knock the $5 bid or the $5 webmaster if they don’t suit you forget about them and move onto the next project. You never know you might come across someone like me and build a relationship that’s mutual.
Thanks
PS trendyweb
This is some friendly advise you should check your website out and sort the images they not loading...
This is a perfect example if you applied for a project i would over look you know matter how much money you bid if your own house isnt in order how you going to ogainise mine.
Thanks
trendywebs
07/13/2006, 17:49
PS trendyweb
This is some friendly advise you should check your website out and sort the images they not loading...
This is a perfect example if you applied for a project i would over look you know matter how much money you bid if your own house isnt in order how you going to ogainise mine.
Thanks
I agree with everything you said about my website. It's been the same way for past 2 years (except the images folder which got overwritten recently when i uploaded a demo for a client). Well frankly speaking i never had enough time to work on my own website for the past 2 yrs. Its only recently that i've started to work on a new look for it. Many people with excellent reviews on SL have their sites still "Under Construction" banner. That doesn't mean that they don't know how to work or don't have knowledge. 99% of them simply never got enough time to spend on their own website. Very similarly i've known some people with excellent homepages with crappy working experience. What i figured out is that actions and reputation speaks more than looks;) Website is something which is used for getting new clients and to explain what you do and what you don't. Till date for past 3 yrs i've never got a client via the website i own:D but my work never stopped because of that. We believe in long term partnerships and all of the clients whom i've worked with come back again and again without noticing what kind of shitty website i have lol. BTW since you pointed out now i've put a "Site Updating" page on the site. Thanks for all your advice.
Regards,
Anirban.:)
The line I love the most :
"I have a very low budget"
Crap!!! If you don't have a budget to do the project, then don't think of doing it in the first place.
Anyways....
I have moaned and groaned about this for too long already. I stick with web design companies who know what they are doing, and especially know how to pay.
And for those bloody $5 programmer/webmaster IDIOTS......WAKE UP!!!
HELL I'm Agree With you MAN. GO TO HELL for that $5 programmer. You ruined the market MAN. We must keep our PRIDE here. We are also a qualified programmer here. Then prove it by not giving those $5 BID.
I wonder if webmasters/buyers ever see the profiles and previous work of all those programmers who have nn number of completed projects.
If I were a buyer, I should think that a programmer with lesser projects, but higher per-project fee would be much better than one who has ten times the number of projects, but all in the $2-$10 range.
RAC has a nice ratings calculator in that sense.
HarryG
I wonder if webmasters/buyers ever see the profiles and previous work of all those programmers who have nn number of completed projects.
If I were a buyer, I should think that a programmer with lesser projects, but higher per-project fee would be much better than one who has ten times the number of projects, but all in the $2-$10 range.
RAC has a nice ratings calculator in that sense.
HarryG
At the end of the day is seriously doesn't matter how much you have earned, or how many projects you have done, but rather what the quality of your work is.
Higher quality work = Higher charges/prices = More future projects :D
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