Would you be interested in a service provider guild?

[acameron]

I had a bit of an idea I started talking about in another post and figured I would make a poll and topic about it to get other feedback.

I wanted to know what all "service" providers thought about forming a guild. The purpose of the guild would be to increase payrates across the board while allowing better service and guarantees to the purchaser.

The guild would be responsible for helping new members get established and build there "business" as well as support veterans in larger projects. It would create a network of people for times when you need some input or assistance and could eventually lead to things like insurance, retirement packages, etc. All the things you need from an "employer" with having an employer.

The benefits to "service" purchasers would be that the "service order" is guaranteed so they can buy with confidence. The would get reliable professional service (because all guildies must follow the guild code of conduct), etc.

Well probably just wishfully thinking but everyone feel free to chime in with thoughts and other ideas.

[ozeworks]

It is problematic as so many people come from different countries so you cannot make money a level playing field. $50 to some people is a fortune and to others it is an hour's work. I don't begrudge those people their $50 - I hope it makes their lives easier.

That is what global competition is all about and why it makes it so difficult to compete.

There will always be people coming to sites like this, particularly this one actually, to find cheap labor. What annoys me the most is when they try to exploit even the cheap labor suppliers by asking the world for $50 and then not even doing it nicely! Particularly when they demand the service provider speak English properly. You want to work with Indians? Well learn their language.

Perhaps there should at least me a minimum amount based on project classification?

[Dread]

Personally i think this would be a brilliant idea, however it would have to be limited to my country, UK. Because the cost of living in the UK is far higher than in other countries we have to charge more, average hourly rate for freelancers in the UK is around £30-£50 an hour, i charge £15 an hour as im just starting out as a full time freelancer and need to build up a portfolio. My price of £15 an hour is extortion compared to the global marketplace on scriptlancers, however, for working in the UK its VERY cheap.

So yes, its a good idea, but it would have to be limited to a per country situation, at least in my case anyway.

Thanks
Dread

[acameron]

In my opinion thats part of the problem. In some countries like Oz was saying $50 is a whole lot of money but in other like yours and mine $50 is not much of anything (I know 50£ is more but go with the flow).

I think part of the guilds responsibilities would be to level the playing field. While we can not make $50 carry the same weight across the globe we could control value of services. The benefit for those who live in countries where $50 is a lot of money is that they get to work less for the same (or more) pay. The benefit for those who live where $50 is not a lot of money at least get equal opportunity to work at a fair wage. The benefit to service purchasers is consistency, reliability, and guarantees.

The point is equal work and pay for all, regardless of demographic. There is no reason why just because some can be paid less they should be, this is how we loose out in all demographics. We turn on each other instead of standing together and saying no we will not develop your $200k CRM software for $500, we will not work 80 - 100 hours per week to make the same rate as flipping burgers at McDonalds.

Perhaps I am thinking a little to eutopian. But it sounds plausible to me.

[hexadesigns]

I appreciate it. But there must be someone to take a lead role in making this happen. Since everyone is busy with their business I think it will be hard to organise it. As you can see there are very few active forum members compared to the programmers who bid. Most even think coming to forums is a waste of time.
But i applaud your idea. :)

[JonPHP]

It is a good idea, but needs to be worked on / modified. Perhaps if we get staff of SL in on it, we can then get it up and going? And yes we would need a leader, perhaps you?

[egoldcity]

Hi,
Acutally, I think it is a very good idea.
With some organized wrok on it.

Thanks

Goldi

[acameron]

I doubt SL would jump in so early in the game. Doing so could potentially hurt business from non guildies and webmasters as they may feel SL is trying to control pricing to increase its own profits thus loosing business to other *lancers.

The best way to start this is independently and see if we can get the *lance site to support in a small way such as adding a guild icon for guild members and a link to the guilds website.

As for starting something like this it would be my assumption that no single person would kick it off. I would suggest a small group from 5 - 11 people to become the "founding" members. These founding members would create roles for each "founding" position. So for instance you could do the following:

Tommy - Guild Master
Fred - Master of Advertising and Public Relations
Tim - Master of Finance
Bob - Master of learning
Frank - Master of rules

These founding members would also be responsible for drawing up a guild charter, rules, etc. Then in say 5 years hold guild elections to put fresh people on the "board". You would need an odd number of "board" members to prevent deadlocks on voting issues. Of course all these details would have to be laid out in the charter.

[acameron]

Its a never ending list of reasons to form a guild. Check out this post (http://forum.scriptlance.com/showthread.php?p=2896)

[acameron]

Hi I am a full timer, married, 2 kids, and am in the process of buying my own home. It can be done!! The trick is to do good work so webmasters will keep you on and you keep steady work.

As for the guild idea...thinks ...well that could work....is that still freelancing...might the prices be so high that webmasters would rather take the chance with an individual with cheaper prices....would there be fees...would guild members share profits Alot to consider.

A lot of Webmasters get shafted too. The point of the guild is to set a fair price, quality of work, and professional ethics/standards and this will in my opinion draw a large majority of webmasters. Sure they have to pay a little more but they know what they are getting and wont see thier "custom" app for sale all over the web a week later. There would be no "cost" to be in the guild and no sharing of profits as each person is still an individual freelancer. We could share work internally, subcontracting, passing on work we cant do or dont have time for etc. Just a few more of my thoughts ;)

[kieranmullen]

Meh - I never liked unions myself. Probably becuase I was forced to join them and never got any benefit from them and I felt the money I had to pay was just giving someone else a job.. (I am sure that you wouldnt make it mandatory of course)

KM

[rebeccalkeene]

That offers most of my questions. I would be willing to work with you towrds getting this going but as I have only 2 reviews I dont know if SL will listen to anything I have to say.

[acameron]

Meh - I never liked unions myself. Probably becuase I was forced to join them and never got any benefit from them and I felt the money I had to pay was just giving someone else a job.. (I am sure that you wouldnt make it mandatory of course)

KM

I agree 100% thats why I suggested guild and not a union. Unions are archaic and riddled with political and social problems of there own. I was in a similar position myself once, they tried to force me to join the "Union" and pay my "duties". I quit :P No one should be forced to join a group (especially one that forcibly takes money from them).

[ykol20]

I just thought of an easy way to keep track of "scriptlance union" members, just getting it out there, I'm sure someone was proabably thinking the same thing. Make a site that has a list of "members" along with a little portfolio/profile for each member. Each member proves their quality to get in. SL would not even have to be bothered with this, just add a link in your profile to the list, and inform your clients that you are an official member. scriptlanceunion.com and scriptlanceguild.com are both available with the ".com" and ".org" extensions. I'm sure someone has a reseller account and could help out if people are really interested in doing this. I have an account with no domain name on it, maybe I could switch it over if it is really needed. I'm interested, these design prices are getting a bit out of hand imho. It would be nice to get some of the more prominent members of the sl community taking a stand and bidding a bit higher once people get on the band waggon and start to bid higher along with them. I honestly dont know how this could all work out, but it sounds like a good idea, a "quality assurance label". Let me know if anyone is interested in moving foreward with this, I have a bit of free time on my hands.

[ykol20]

I appreciate it. But there must be someone to take a lead role in making this happen. Since everyone is busy with their business I think it will be hard to organise it. As you can see there are very few active forum members compared to the programmers who bid. Most even think coming to forums is a waste of time.
But i applaud your idea. :)

Many people read the boards but never want to mess around with the sl support to get their account activated. This is the situation that I was in a few weeks ago. I think a big thread with a link on how to join the guild (this one) would be pretty easy to see. Take a look at how many views there are for each thread compared to replies.

[rebeccalkeene]

I would help organize it

[ykol20]

hm, 3 people, not bad...I just used one of my "open" hosting accounts for another domain name so I can't use it for this purpose. Maybe registering sometype of domain name could be a start? How many people are still interested?

[gcsaba2]

Is there going to be a monthly membership fee?
I would be interested to join a guild which I could later show to webmasters as a guarantee that I won't cheat on them. So far there's too much risk and I've lost two jobs last week because someone with more reviews bidded the same ammount that I did.

[ykol20]

Is there going to be a monthly membership fee?
I would be interested to join a guild which I could later show to webmasters as a guarantee that I won't cheat on them. So far there's too much risk and I've lost two jobs last week because someone with more reviews bidded the same ammount that I did.

I would guess that there would be no money involved. Just a quality assurance label.

[gcsaba2]

If this becomes real don't forget to include me :D

[techcode]

Idea sounds interesting. So I'm somewhat interested. But wouldn't have time to work on organizing it as I'm finishing for my BCSC degree and freelancing.

@gcsaba2: Neighbor, where you from ? ;)

Anyway, I believe there are many more ways to improve our standings. Beside geting some sort of minimal price for each project type - we should work out with SL on some sort of arbitration or something more than just = webmaster canceled the payment ...

[gcsaba2]

@gcsaba2: Neighbor, where you from ? Covece konacno da vidim nekoga iz Srbije, ovde svi neki Indijci :)
Ja sam iz Novog Sada

[jayapura]

Typing letters at random is easy for me too :

Tridre' tijhogh fi, guvm pobenqf vefigoss eisu. Jizne ne ve e, evet, açam.

:D

[bluape]

Mmmmm. I think it's a good idea in theory. However, it could appear complicated to some, especially the contractors. Freelancers are meant to be a fast and easy solution after all, and I'm not sure how you would advertise the idea to hook the employer.

I completely agree with the guys talking about charge difference worldwide. I live in the UK and I also experience the battle of the charges. But I have noticed that some contractors actually would rather pay the extra just to be working with UK Freelancers.

I run a small Graphic Design business, and one of my main competition is sites like this one. So I figure, if you can't beet em, join em; I'm sick of being out-bidded by someone who charges next to nothing and says view my port folio - only to find that have a poor port folio and some negative feedback. So I tend not to bid that much on here any more when my work goes thin at my business. Instead, I have made a Freelance site that is UK based for and will be marketed that way. Obviously people will have the choice of international, but I will at some point some apply a country filter, so contractor can choose only to accept bids from a specific country if they wish, or indeed world wide.

I will get people interested by making the FEATURED projects a much lower price. I can do this because my overheads are lower, and it will encourage Freelancers as well as Contractors as there will be no commission.

Sorry about the long message, I just thought I would air my thoughts hahaha

[oscmaster]

Well its nice to havea guild but rather then rate(As the world is competitive) we need to look that thru guild members can save there time and provide quality output.

I am ready to help out in developing this guild.

Satish Mantri

[Anjac]

This may sound silly but, how is being a guild member different from being a certified member (taking SL as an example)?

[jdoassociates]

Count me in. I've read a l l the posts in this thread, even the ones that are "linked" to other threads. :::whew:::

As a writer not a "programmer", per se; and, somewhat new to ScriptLance, just this morning I received a reply back from a bid I made last night. Part of the reply stated that if I was a "...qualified person" [direct quote] then my bid would have been lower.

As it states in my profile (I checked, just to make sure before I clicked "submit") I have twenty years of education and experience in the field of writing. I suggested to the person that, perhaps, there was a better word choice --- "not qualified" = "no feedback" - real differences between those two - and sent that off this morning. They did, however, apologize and I accepted their apology. :::smiling - that was nice of them:::

There are s o many ways to have discrepancies of that nature within ScriptLance - as well as other "freelance" sites, as well.

Whatever it is that I can offer to assist y'all in this...just shoot me an email or send an IM via AIM/YAHOO/MSN.

Off to brunch - enjoy this day you make/are given ~

*jdo*

*clear*concise*creative*copywriter*

P.S. Perhaps all this has to be "outside" of ScriptLance ... I know, I know - MUCH bigger - ie. more complicated - project.

ah well...such is Life

tah tah

[jdoassociates]

Perhaps, something in the nature of - The EFA (http://the-efa.org) - would be a possibility ?

Just throwing "stuff" into this ring.

Enjoy ~

*jdo*

P.P.S. In reply to Anjac's query, for a writer not a programmer...within the context of ScriptLance, I cannot get "certified". :( ah well...

[Anjac]

Thank you for that jdo - count me in too.

[xinsales]

I have a server sitting there doing nothing, and 3 t-1 to it. I think that I could donate it to use for the "guild"

it's nothing major but it would be free, it's a Cobalt Server but again it's free!!!

[value4money]

I think u can do this but screen the programmers thoroughly and include only those who are doing proper job and not trying to take the programmers for a ride... Think of how to do that.. U really cant risk th eguild accumulating badwill. It will effecta ll the members collectively and we could take ahike then...! :confused:

I had a bit of an idea I started talking about in another post and figured I would make a poll and topic about it to get other feedback.

I wanted to know what all "service" providers thought about forming a guild. The purpose of the guild would be to increase payrates across the board while allowing better service and guarantees to the purchaser.

The guild would be responsible for helping new members get established and build there "business" as well as support veterans in larger projects. It would create a network of people for times when you need some input or assistance and could eventually lead to things like insurance, retirement packages, etc. All the things you need from an "employer" with having an employer.

The benefits to "service" purchasers would be that the "service order" is guaranteed so they can buy with confidence. The would get reliable professional service (because all guildies must follow the guild code of conduct), etc.

Well probably just wishfully thinking but everyone feel free to chime in with thoughts and other ideas.

[vaidulis]

I am from Lithuania. I started to work with SL only few weeks ago. So I am newbie in SL. But not in programming. I made here first 2 projects.

In my country example 50$ for many is "big" money because minmal salary here is about 200$. In other countries this sum is more bigger. So i believe will be hard guild job.

I agree providers (programmers, designers) jobs must paid good. Because many of them have big experiece in codding. Experience cost.

LOL I hate to look to "projects" which costs 15$ and written for "experience developer is small job" and you must play with it 1-2 hours. I don't want waste my time on this.... better to go to drink with friends.

[skiv]

You want to know what do I think?

Does any large client need a guild?
No. He has enough money to pay a professional company.

Does any professional company/freelance developer need a guild?
No, he's enough known on the market and has enough projects.

What will cause the guild? The projects prices will grow.
The developers will earn less (as they need to pay for staying in a guild).
Who wins from this?

Only those poor students who work for $50-$200 a month here.
Who has no reputationand no stable clients and projects flow.

This is same like in real world.

If they want - they can form a guild.
This will not touch rish clients. Nor well-known developers/companies.
Maybe this will help newbies. I dont know. Such a sandbox....

You know, the better idea is to make a site for supporting newbie develoeprs/programmers.
We've got a lot of experience and each my developer can write tons of articles and hints on PHP/MySQL.
Maybe we'll make such a site in the future, which will also contain all documentation needed, etc.
Such sites exist already, I know.

But I cant see any other real help of the guilds.
Do you?

Regards, skiv

[IDEASGirl]

It can work if is very well organized and well developed.

I can offer my help... I can give input concerning Puerto Rico and Canada areas of work. Also I can offer the hosting free of charge.

I agree that SL can't be included on this because of conflict of interests, it should be completely appart.

[skiv]

IDEASGirl, are you registered on SL?
What is your nickname?

[justin]

You can find the username of a forum member by viewing their forum profile ;)

https://www.scriptlance.com/cgi-bin/freelancers/freelancers.cgi?viewprofile=ideasgirl

[skiv]

Thanks, Justin!

[IDEASGirl]

:rolleyes: Sooooooooooooooooo.... what's up skiv? :D

[phenodesign]

Yes, I think it should be a good thing. I think we should make it on / month membership cost and only for the featured providers. Who don't want / can't make this monthly payment of SL featured provider shouldn't dream about this guild and that's all.

Hour rate:
I think this is the most stupid thing to charge in hour rate.
Why we shouldn't charge the value of the work? :p
Not depending in where are we from, just the value of the work.
Is a site for $2000?, ok then lets make it for $2000. No matter if I use this money in India for a year, or in UK for a week.

Who should lead?
Maybe a SL team member or old scriptlancers will be the best.:cool:
Some who have very good management skills.

Ati

[wasatch9]

Hello.

I have been with script lance for about 3 weeks now. I have posted projects and also bid on projects. This is what I see as going on.

First there are people so desperate to get feedback that they are literally giving their services away. Second, there are people on this site that are literally giving their services away, so people that cannot afford to work for free are getting hurt.

From what I have been reading in the forum, this is hurting all of us. The good programmers, designers etc. are leaving. Which in no uncertain terms leaves scriptlance with unqualified hatchet programmers and designers. (Sorry guys but I say it like I see it) I think there are some very good programmers left and some very good designers left. But I will not be here much longer if something does not change. Almost 100 bids later, I have no feedback because I have no one that will use me because I have no feedback.

I think the guild is a great idea. However, I feel just from my brief stay here that perhaps it should be done this way:

First: get a good server, a good script and a good site built.
Second: Recruit programmers and designers. When a programmer or designer comes to the site have them show their protfolios. From there a 3 to 5 member panel can judge their portfolio and give them a rating. These rating could be reviewed once a month and either raised or lowered depending upon their work.
Third: Once a good group of programmers and designers come on board, advertise the snot out of the site to people all over the world. Touting the fact that we have some of the best designers and programmers on the planet. All it will take is a few that post their projects and walk away happy and we will have success on our hands.
Fourth: Have a country filter of some sort, like one of the other members mentioned. I am from The United States, and if I can go American I will do it over almost anything else. Again, nothing against anyone else, but I try to be as loyal as I can to my country.

These are just a few thoughts that I have had over the past few weeks of frustration. I am in the process of working this all out in my head and putting something together. I know a number of very good programmers and designers that left scriptlance because of exactly what I have been talking about. I was hoping scriptlance could provide a way to sustain us over the winter, but with what is going on, I would be better off at McD's or something like that.

As this progresses, I will let you know. The guild idea is a very good idea. Just needs some tweaking and I am sure it could go well. Just need to keep the good qualified people around and things will stay in the higher eschelons of service and requirements.

One last thought. People go to the Ritz, The Marriott etc. and pay exhorbanant amounts of money for rooms there. But they are willing to pay the extra because they know that they will get treated right. If a freelance site or guild or whatever offered that type of service, where when a client comes in and has a project, and he knows that he can go to freelance site 1 and get it at a low price with questionable results or go to freelance site 2 and have the same results or go to freelance site 3 (the guild or whatever) and get high quality, assurance, and respect...then which one would he choose? Of course the Ritz, or the Marriott or in this case the guild or whatever.

Hey, thanks for your time. Let me know what you think about my thoughts.

Best Regards!

:)

[zuul]

Personally I do not care about the whole global competition argument, it is flawed anyway. How is it fair for somebody to do a month's work for $50 in india then expect me to do that in the US. Making $50 for a months work here means I lose money and a lot of it. So global competition is not good. And so many of these job stealing people do not even do the job well. I think a guild would benefit all of us. Including scriptlance, they charge a percentage of the work, I am sure they are not happy for getting a percentage of $50 which is just pennies to them. When they could be getting a percentage of $5000 which is an honest months pay for a large project done right.

I think a guild should be put in and not allow these people in india to bid so low. Force them to bid at our prices and that would even benefit them.

[digitalnature]

Personally I do not care about the whole global competition argument, it is flawed anyway. How is it fair for somebody to do a month's work for $50 in india then expect me to do that in the US. Making $50 for a months work here means I lose money and a lot of it. So global competition is not good. And so many of these job stealing people do not even do the job well. I think a guild would benefit all of us. Including scriptlance, they charge a percentage of the work, I am sure they are not happy for getting a percentage of $50 which is just pennies to them. When they could be getting a percentage of $5000 which is an honest months pay for a large project done right.

I think a guild should be put in and not allow these people in india to bid so low. Force them to bid at our prices and that would even benefit them.

I live in Romania, and many romanians here bid very low also :(
This is due to general incomes in these countries, which are much lower than in US. You would do the same if you lived in India for example, where $50 is a considerably large sum.
The only solution to this is to now allow lower bids than a certain level.
I would agree to this :)

[skiv]

Did you see elance?
There are projects, that can not be seen by just everybody.
You need to be a gold member to see the projects for gold members.
The idea is clear, yeah?

[hexadesigns]

Skiv,
Good to see your ID intact :D

I do see I posted in this thread here back in july but the argument continues. Well to be specific the idea is good but the need for such a guild has not arised yet!

I think a guild should be put in and not allow these people in india to bid so low. Force them to bid at our prices and that would even benefit them.
Well zuul (if thats also your SL id) I appreciate your thoughts but as you can understand this is global economy. This means when you are buying coke for $1 we are buying it for 25 cents. So we bid low.
As simple as that.

[rebeccalkeene]

Skiv,
Good to see your ID intact :D

I do see I posted in this thread here back in july but the argument continues. Well to be specific the idea is good but the need for such a guild has not arised yet!


Well zuul (if thats also your SL id) I appreciate your thoughts but as you can understand this is global economy. This means when you are buying coke for $1 we are buying it for 25 cents. So we bid low.
As simple as that.


If you'd bid competitively with us "the Americans" then you could buy more coke. It would be better for you and us if you bid at our prices.

[skiv]

Indeed :)

[zuul]

[ first warning - offensive comments can lead to account suspensions ]

[kieranmullen]

On the other hand if you in any way control prices or bids. (People outside the US may not understand this concept since other goverments do it so much more than the US) you are limiting the free economoy. Which is something that helped Americas economy become what it is today.

KM

[dcm]

Personally I do not care about the whole global competition argument, it is flawed anyway. How is it fair for somebody to do a month's work for $50 in india then expect me to do that in the US. Making $50 for a months work here means I lose money and a lot of it. So global competition is not good. And so many of these job stealing people do not even do the job well. I think a guild would benefit all of us. Including scriptlance, they charge a percentage of the work, I am sure they are not happy for getting a percentage of $50 which is just pennies to them. When they could be getting a percentage of $5000 which is an honest months pay for a large project done right.

I think a guild should be put in and not allow these people in india to bid so low. Force them to bid at our prices and that would even benefit them.
yes good money is GOOD! but.. as hexa designs says... we have money difference $1 = 45rs. so naturally we will be happy to get $5 x45 = 250rs.

while you will not be happy to receive $5...

as my suggestion you should not.. raise this problem.. i myself suffer this problem form lots other fellow indian members..

see they are wasteing.. working hard to get money.. so let them waste their hard work if they are bidding low...

so relex and plz work good on ur jobs

[hexadesigns]

I do understand that some people are not been able to survive in the price competetion. The fact is it is too much competetion. It is more clustered around the petty jobs like logo designing...templates designing...and similar stuffs. I did a five figure job on software develoment a month ago (still in its beta and not in SL though) for a leading co. in Canada. The fact is I was the highest bidder for the job. Even the second bid came nowhere around my quote. But still they had to pick me...the reason - less competetion when you are dealing serious projects on VC++/Delphi or similar stuffs.

So my suggestion will be rather than being a crybaby lookout for jobs that have very few bids or make yourself a master or guru in one niche and dictate your price for it. No one will be able to outbid you even if he quotes $1 less than you.

Otherwise just waste your time by posting in the forums to stop the $5 bids which actually *wont happen*.

PS: Oh well I still love doing $10 graphics jobs in my leisure time and I think I will continue doing it.

[digitalnature]

On the other hand if you in any way control prices or bids. (People outside the US may not understand this concept since other goverments do it so much more than the US) you are limiting the free economoy. Which is something that helped Americas economy become what it is today.

KM

American economy is FREE?
Dont make me laugh (or cry). Your economy is based on other people's suffering.

And what is this about low bids?
How can you expect a programmer who's country's general income is about 100$/month to bid $500 on a project that wouldnt take more than 4-5 days?


And so many of these job stealing people do not even do the job well.

I dont agree with that.
The percetange of job stealing people is much higher on your side (or at least the jobs are pathetic done), and thats because a guy from India knows that he's getting paid pretty good considering, again, their income.
Wouldnt you do a better job when you're paid very well?
Why are we being ignorant? People from India are known to be top programmers.

I look at many of your websites when looking at your bids.
Many of you barely have a decent website for your business, not to mention a solid portfolio, and I'm not talking about the whole template monster series thats floating around the Internet.

best regards

[Arachnaphobe]

What about us poor people in the UK where $50 dollars (after SL and whatever weird formular PayPal use to convert to sterling have taken their cut) would just about pay for a half decent meal for 1 (without wine).

A land that thinks $2 for a gallon of petrol is expensive(!!) has some seriously strange views about their economy. $2 would barely get you a litre over here.

I don't have exact figures for goods and services in the US (I only know about the petrol because we couldn't stop laughing in disbelief when it popped up on the news) but here's what $10 would buy here:

1/3 a bottle of Vodka,
1/2 a Top 40 CD
1/5 of a DVD
10 "tailor made" cigarettes

I could go on but I've probably already used $10 of electricity writing this message.

So, following on from the US vs the rest of the World (where have I heard that before?) argument of this thread. People in the UK and many other European countries should get preferential treatment to stop the damn Yanks nicking all the projects with their "cheap" bids.

Tongue in Cheekily,

Paul

[zuul]

Wow, my post was removed, Must have hit too close to home for some people and they got offended by the truth.

[hexadesigns]

Wow, my post was removed, Must have hit too close to home for some people and they got offended by the truth.

What happens if you start walking on your hands and eating with your legs? You will be removed from your house and transferred to a asylum. Because you will be breaking the human protocol.
Similarly every forum has its own protocol. What to post and what not to. If you break it, your thread gets removed. No other reason. :)

[Arachnaphobe]

Wow, my post was removed, Must have hit too close to home for some people and they got offended by the truth.

I'm only offended by things that are offensive, not the truth. I really hope somebody didn't display some stereotypical American lack of irony or subtlety and take my post seriously. I'd hate to have that notion reinforced - I'm sure it's unfounded.

[trendywebs]

This is a very bright idea...people who are good in programming can split the job and who are good in designing can do that part while delivering the work on time with better quality and not sacrificing on the effectiveness of the project.

[Alivia]

that would be super-cool!! :):)

[pixelita]

I'd be more interested in categories of service. I see so many projects out there where they've got a PSD they want sliced. Well, where were they when it was a graphic arts project? (We can do both, but I generally try to get some "filler" jobs for my graphic artist, since coding (what I do) takes up more time than his graphic artwork on any given web design project.

What I meant by the above is that if you want to, you can "enroll" in a niche category such as programmer (which is a misnomer here at SL the way it's used, IMHO) or a designer/graphic artist or copywriter. Know what I mean?

[bamse]

I saw a lot of opinions around here pro and contra "low" bids.

Just to clarify i'm from Romania and i think my bids are somewhere in the middle path.

Coming back to the topic i must say that i also think that some of the bids set by some freelancers are way to low. I bet if someone says clone the yahoo site ..there will be a guy which will bid somewhere around 100$.

Well excuse me ..but ..this is somewhat impossible.

Anyway the problem in my opinion is more in the webmaster part, as they are not understanding that a lot of the bids are just fake or the work which they will get is a crap, stolen or something like that. Anyway in the long term period they lose since sooner or later they will realize that what they bought for 10$ it's somewhat useless, or worse they don't realize that paying 50$ for a good contact form will save a lot of his time used to delete spam emails.

I know that there are html coders which they don't even know to write valide html code and which will say that they do an awesome work and will slice a psd file for 10$, and to hell how can you make competion to them, obvious my bid will be skipped and the webmaster will have a big image which will load in 5 second every time someone visit his site and so on long term he will lose a lot visitors but at that point he made a good deal after all he payed only 10$ instead 100$. Great deal ..ha

And there are many other examples..

Freelancing work when it comes to common things like html & php is starting to be not profitable at all, at least not on this site, for some weeks i really have the impression that the standards and bids went way to low.
I could make a contact form for 2$ in 10 min and that may be a win but for who?! Not for me and i'm not talking just about the money, but personally i want to be proud about my work.

Anyway as a conclusion the guild ideea is a little too much but maybe some guides posted on scriptlance site which will explain to webmasters how things going will be an improve.

[pixelita]

Until the cheapskate, get-something-for-nothing (or next to nothing) mentality of some (well, to be fair, MOST) web masters here changes once and for all, none of that (elite, guild, etc.) is going to matter. The web masters want the moon and stars now as it is and act like they are doing YOU a favor by paying you at all. Quite a number of the project descriptions smack of disrespect, disdain and condescension toward the programmers.

There is one hard, true cold fact here, which escapes every last one of their ilk:

You. Get. What. You. Pay. For.

Our new mantra? Fast, Cheap, Good. Pick one.

I believe the previous poster to this has said some things that really needed to be said and web masters need to take a good long hard look at themselves and their hiring practices. There will continue to be low ball bids and people will continue to provide sub-par service for these low bids (you get what you pay for, remember?). When web masters learn that if they want a professional job, they'll have to open their wallets (and their minds while they are at it), nothing much will change, unfortunately.

[WorkSmart]

... and people will continue to provide sub-par service for these low bids...


I strongly disagree to the above statement.

How can we generalize on the term that anyone who bids "lower", is automatically guaranteed to provide sub-par services ?!

Or the other way too -- If someone bids higher than another service provider, does that guarantee that the service would be better than the person who has outbid him ?

If someone were to outbid me on a project, would it be appropriate for me to judge that the service provider who has outbid me, would be providing a sub-par solution / product to the client ? He may provide a better solution than me - quite possible!

So generalizing a statement that lower bids are bound to provide sub-standard service / product is absolutely inappropriate.

Don't take it personally, but I'm sure Pixelita might have won projects whom he/she would've outbid somebody else - so does that mean that the service provider (whom Pixelita may have outbid) would have provided a better solution than Pixelita (if he had been awarded the project) ?

Hope you get the point I'm trying to make.


...they don't realize that paying 50$ for a good contact form will save a lot of his time used to delete spam emails.




Well, If I were in your place - I would explain to the client that why I'm charging $50 for a contact form (for which somebody else is charging $10), and let the client decide whether he wants a plain simple form (without security measures, for $10) or have a robust contact form by paying $50 and secure it with CAPTCHA.

After all, "quality is conformance to requirement" - So who are we to conclude that the webmaster _ONLY_ wants a form with CAPTCHA :)

[pixelita]

Well, WorkSmart, maybe I was a bit harsh. But "generally," it seems that the majority of *web masters* do not recognize the fact that good web design often does not come cheap. Now that being said, sometimes a web master may get lucky with someone in an economically challenged country who happens to have a much lower profit margin. Or perhaps someone who is fresh out of design school or something like that.

I guess what my problem is with all of that, and which I apparently failed miserably in articulating, is the fact that it seems to me that *most* web masters *expect* bargain basement prices. There are a lot of web design shops out there -- and these are very well educated, skilled, creative, professional folks -- whose prices start in the low four figures. How often, honestly, do you ever see a budget like that here?

I am mostly reacting to jobs along the lines of someone wanting a site like [name of obviously professionally well done site with Flash, shopping cart technology, the whole enchilada usually] and my budget is $150.. oh, and I need it within 24 hours, and please show me a mock up of what you plan so I can see if I want to bother to pay you." And you *know* the kind of projects I'm talking about. :-)

I apologize if I came across too harsh there. (See what happens when I haven't had my coffee!)

[WorkSmart]

I am mostly reacting to jobs along the lines of someone wanting a site like [name of obviously professionally well done site with Flash, shopping cart technology, the whole enchilada usually] and my budget is $150.. oh, and I need it within 24 hours, and please show me a mock up of what you plan so I can see if I want to bother to pay you." And you *know* the kind of projects I'm talking about. :-)


Absolutely, I very well understand how it feels.
To tell you the fact - the top-notch creative designers get paid anywhere between INR 20,000 to INR 50,000 a month! (and I'm talking about creative graphic designer with lot of experience) -- that comes to around USD 600 to USD 1400 a month!

So you can imagine the hourly rate that people here work for (approx $3 to $6 an hour, which is considered a luxurious pay ;) ) If my company used to take designing jobs (which we're not), it would be pretty much cheaper than having to hire an American to do the same job.

So, what might be _worth_ a few thousand dollars, if done by an American designer, could be achieved in only a couple of hundred dollars, and that too, with great satisfaction of the designing team / company.



I apologize if I came across too harsh there. (See what happens when I haven't had my coffee!)

Haha... no problem ;)

[MadeITSolutions]

As to get away from global politics and more-so on the subject at hand - I would like to point out instead of trying to gain credability through association, why not trying to establish actual credability through your work? Believe it or not, there are in fact people willing to pay extra money for good hard working individuals, not everyone is a cheapskape. Usually, from the project posting I can determine if the individual is willing to pay for quality or just wants something done as cheap as possible - depending on the job at hand, I may bid but generally I only bid on projects that are well planned out as typically, they are the ones who have researched and know what it costs to produce the site.

With that being stated, regardless - if you belong to 'The Scriptlance Guild Of North America' or 'The World', then cheapskapes will look for their low bids, and the serious people will look for the good quality workers.

Good luck with your endevour - I will stick to being the lone ranger.

[parodyuk]

I think this is a brilliant idea, for people with good feedback ratings & scriptlance members. Of course you would need to cross check there details (like the forum does) checking if they are actually a registered scriptlance member.

I think the idea about sharing projects is also good helping each other out, giving each other tips.

Theres something like this for Landlords, they give free legal advice, lawyers & advertisement for a small montly fee.

Personally i would love to have this happen, it would make getting work alot easier count me in

All the best.
Parody.

[OxyK]

well, i've read this thread from start to the last post
many points of view, any nations, many ideas.....
from end to start :)
1. share projects - you can do it easily 'cause you probably have worked with other programmers on projects (your design and their coding etc. or webmaster give you great feedback for a programmer, or ask to assist etc) so you can communicate and share work if you like
2. hourly rates for americans, indians, ukrainians, russian etc - matter of taste - a complex one - all of us know what it worth in US and why all that clients go to the scriptlance, sure to cut that expenses and get the job done for for as low cost as it can be, otherwise they will ask for it US developers :)
3. quality of xxxx quote and xx - a question - 'cause some programmers can do it a month, but other can spend 3 hours on it and it willl be by all standards
4. it's not a secret - web-super-xxxx- hire programmers on sl to get their job done for xx. and sure there's always couple of programmers who will do it for a review :)
5. I don't know why US-based programmers complain about low bids etc, and why they on sl if they can manage their business in their country (lol, i did not have any business in my country for last 1 year, and if i will have, i'll charge client for international rates, and i don't care if it's a bit expensive for ukraine - and it's obvious - why someone will work for a nothing if he/she can spend this time more eficiently)

=cut
6. guild
someone try to find an easy way? someone feels weak when he's alone and discuss a project with a client? someone feel uncomfortable when other programmer was awarded with a project? or someone believes that US client will pay extra for a guild member? you know, guys/gals, you should be communists to feel what's that corruption about :) or you think your power is when there's a million members to choose from? or when any newcomer must become a guild member to HAVE A CHANCE for a work? but if newcomer wan't to manage his work on his own? do you believe he will have a chance to do it, when there's a guild pressed all?
personally, I work on sl 'cause i don't want to have any co- or mafia that will control me or give me some work. an here's many programmers like me.
у овец своя толпа (sorry, dunno how to translate it)

kids, you should come back in 60's

[devcore]

Personally, I think it would divide us, Europeans will work with Europeans as our coin is stronger than any other, for instance, $50 in some cases not even reaches € 40, ad it's even worst when you transfer from PayPal to a bank account, 200 dollars becomes 100 euros.

[Zoom]

This is an excellent idea. I do agree with the person and things they have to say about unions, but I don't feel this is the case here...

I actually was thinking about this last couple of weeks, because I work mostly on the creative end of things and am not really interested in scripts and code and all of that... And was hoping to work with some people registered here at SL, who live in my area, but could not contact them since there's no option for freelancers to contact one another. Perhaps SL can introduce an option for freelancers to make a guild (or whatever You wanna call it) and then they could. Maybe it could be something like the linked accounts, only these can be of more than one person to work on a single project or something... I don't know if this makes any sense, just throwing some ideas here...

But, anyway, whoever brought this up, I have to say: It's a great idea.

P.S. sorry, my comments are probably out of date, since I only read the first page (wasn't aware there are more than one)... But, You get the point I want to make

[webdesigner706]

I am knew to SL, but I have been in web design for 10 years. I have seen a lot of decline in rates. I believe that one of the primary reasons for the decline has been a lack of organization.
I think that this is a brilliant idea. You can definitely count me in and if there are any needs for leadership/organization, I am interested in that as well. I have very strong organizational skills and will definitely lend a hand in any way that I am needed.

[nextgi]

Personally, I think it would divide us, Europeans will work with Europeans as our coin is stronger than any other, for instance, $50 in some cases not even reaches € 40, ad it's even worst when you transfer from PayPal to a bank account, 200 dollars becomes 100 euros.

That is very true, which is why i believe we should start with the highest valued currency, which is the EURO.

I am more then ready to get this off the ground. I posted a thread about a crappy project a little bit ago and mentioned UNION but a union would not be good, a guild is the right idea. As for membership costs, there should be none, just a donation setup.

Anyway, im in to get this rolling.

We should have different levels of pay inside the guild. For experience mainly. or maybe keep it the same and share within the guild and see who fits the bill for the proejct. We should also use a general project management system ActiveCollab) so everyone is on the same page.

[nextgi]

well, i've read this thread from start to the last post
many points of view, any nations, many ideas.....
from end to start :)
1. share projects - you can do it easily 'cause you probably have worked with other programmers on projects (your design and their coding etc. or webmaster give you great feedback for a programmer, or ask to assist etc) so you can communicate and share work if you like
2. hourly rates for americans, indians, ukrainians, russian etc - matter of taste - a complex one - all of us know what it worth in US and why all that clients go to the scriptlance, sure to cut that expenses and get the job done for for as low cost as it can be, otherwise they will ask for it US developers :)
3. quality of xxxx quote and xx - a question - 'cause some programmers can do it a month, but other can spend 3 hours on it and it willl be by all standards
4. it's not a secret - web-super-xxxx- hire programmers on sl to get their job done for xx. and sure there's always couple of programmers who will do it for a review :)
5. I don't know why US-based programmers complain about low bids etc, and why they on sl if they can manage their business in their country (lol, i did not have any business in my country for last 1 year, and if i will have, i'll charge client for international rates, and i don't care if it's a bit expensive for ukraine - and it's obvious - why someone will work for a nothing if he/she can spend this time more eficiently)

=cut
6. guild
someone try to find an easy way? someone feels weak when he's alone and discuss a project with a client? someone feel uncomfortable when other programmer was awarded with a project? or someone believes that US client will pay extra for a guild member? you know, guys/gals, you should be communists to feel what's that corruption about :) or you think your power is when there's a million members to choose from? or when any newcomer must become a guild member to HAVE A CHANCE for a work? but if newcomer wan't to manage his work on his own? do you believe he will have a chance to do it, when there's a guild pressed all?
personally, I work on sl 'cause i don't want to have any co- or mafia that will control me or give me some work. an here's many programmers like me.
у овец своя толпа (sorry, dunno how to translate it)

kids, you should come back in 60's


OK, wow.

That does make some sense, but yet it destroys others possibilities and spreads like wild fire.

It is kind of like walmart (scriptlance) v Dillards for clothes (US people know).

The people that look on these job boards and post projects dont know what quality is. So when they pay $50 for a site they think its a god send.

For example, we have done work for Coca-Cola, Microsoft, jangl, Podshow etc. Some of which found on here. Paid high thousands for what they wanted. You look at their products etc compared to something done else for $50 and you will see there IS a HUGE difference. Money for anyone creates want. The more you want to more work you do, the more work you do that is quality the more money you get.

just recently i developed a facebook application for originally 1250, plus added features came out to be 1750. The other bidder placed a bid for $200. And had more reviews, not all good though. i was chosen because of the big companies i have done work for but, the webmasters who are cheap at heart dont care about your experience or your value on a project or even if you enjoy what you, they just want it cheap.

Again, im not trying to be rude but, the higher cost countries are that way not because of living but because they worked hard to get their knowledge and etc, so they deserve better paying jobs, more money etc.

And countries like India for example, Im not being racist just so you know. I have been to Chennai, and worked sideby side with 2 developers. One getting paid $55 USD and the other getting paid $6 USD. There was a HUGE difference in their attitude towards the work they were doing. The one working for less looked very stressed, un happy, over worked. he knew that he could make more.

The one making 55/hour was very happy, drove a nice car, had a nice pad, but the other cheaper one had more work, way more work because of cheap webmasters.

Anyway, My point still stands. if we make development a level playing field by taking the highest valued currency (EURO) and charge that then everyone would make equal. Or close to it at least.

[OxyK]

Again, im not trying to be rude but, the higher cost countries are that way not because of living but because they worked hard to get their knowledge and etc, so they deserve better paying jobs, more money etc. .

i don't want to be rude, just observation
ask clients what they think about US developers. i have no idea how you can learn more if you in 20 years solve math that we have solved in 12-13 :)
everyone gets the price he deserved. whining on that is like say 'i'm a looser, i can't earn so it's indians who i can blame for my failure'

i'll be happy to see the guild in work... will you invite indians to do $5 work while you will do $40? lol

[nextgi]

i don't want to be rude, just observation
ask clients what they think about US developers. i have no idea how you can learn more if you in 20 years solve math that we have solved in 12-13 :)
everyone gets the price he deserved. whining on that is like say 'i'm a looser, i can't earn so it's indians who i can blame for my failure'

i'll be happy to see the guild in work... will you invite indians to do $5 work while you will do $40? lol

I don't believe you understood what i ment. I did not mean only the US. My statement was aimed at everyone who works hard for their knowledge, skill, and experience. Thos people should receive higher paying jobs. Not some idiot who went and payed $50 for a 1 day class and has like 3 months experience.